COLUMBUS, Ohio -- On this Monday Buckeye Talk, Stephen Means, Nathan Baird and Andrew Gillis begin to unveil their rankings of the 10 most valuable Buckeyes to Ohio State football’s 2024 season.
This podcast 🅷covers the players who just missed the top 10, plus Nos. 10 through six. The top five will be discussed on Tuesday.
Players and coaches are combined in this ranking, and it’s not a be🌠st-of list. It’s value. It’s importance.
St༒ephen, Nathan, And🍰rew and the Ohio State text subscribers each ranked their top 20 Buckeyes, and the lists were then combined to rank this top 10.
Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.
Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Stephen Means (00:22.207)
Welcome back to book I talk. I’m Stephen Means. That’s Nathan Baird and that’s Andrew Gillis. And this is going to be a fun one. At least I think so. We are ranking the value of people associated with the Ohio State football program. I𒁏 told Nathan and Andrew and I told ou✤r Texers 614 -350 -3315 to rank.
Just people, it could be a coach, it could be a player. I said, hey, man, if you want to do a strength and conditioning staff member, you can do that as well. If you want to pick Kailos and nutrition and nutrition, you can do that as well. Everything was on the table as long as they were already associated with the program, which, of course, eliminates anybody who’s committed. They have to be associated with the program already in the program going into the twenty twenty four season. The most valuable people to Ohio State’s chances of winning a national champiᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚ𒀱ᩚᩚᩚonship in twenty twenty four.
It was a lot of math. So what I did was I had Nathan and Andrew and I, we all sent our top 20s to get a consensus. And then with the textures, we just had them send top fives because there’s a lot of textures. We love you guys. There’s a lot of you guys. So between those lists,🐻 we got a consensus. I came up with this formula that I’m not going to spare you guys with the details🏅 work with, but it worked. We actually got a really good formula. 30 different people got a vote between.
Us three and the Texers plus three other people that I just want to say off the top of the hand just because I thought they were funny Nathan RJ day got a vote as a just keep the quarterback morale up Respect to that and then the bag man from the NIL got a vote So that’s yeah. Shout out to the bag men listen a꧒nd then this one’s just fun just because first of all, it’s not following directions but from the 586 I loved it because you didn’t follow directions time for Michigan, but I
Oh no.
Stephen Means (02:08.191)
The reason you didn’t follow directions, I can respect it 100%. He put number one, Nick Saban, he’s not within the program, he puts in qu🦩otes, but hear me out. If he had not retired, is the whole field odds not lower to win the Natty if he’𒅌s still around? Secondly, he would not have given us Caleb Downs if he was still coaching. I will die on this hill. So I do respect that. The domino effect of.
Nick Saban retiring, offering some people that we’re going to talk about on that list. That’s worth mentioning, even if it’s not necessarily in the rules. So I respect them for doing that. So those are the three random ones. Before we get into our official top 10, because that’s what we’re going to do here. We’re going to do six through 10 on the Monday pod and the Tuesday pod. We’re going to do one through fꦦive. Here are some people who just missed the official list. And who had the highest vote for them. So we can talk about that a little bit.
Josh Simmons right off the list, he’s at 🔯number 12, which oꦛff the bat tells you there’s a couple of people who tied in the top 10. Josh Simmons right off the bat, he’s number 12. Andrew, you had him the highest of all of us between us three and the Texers. You had him at six. Why six for Josh Simmons, Ohio State’s left tackle?
Yeah, I think the, I mean, you need to have a go♏od tackle situation. Um, and I think Josh Simmons is really valuable going into this year. Um, because not just maybe what I think he can be. I think you, we, we saw at the beginning of the year, how bad it can look. Um, you know, there were just maybe not physical mistakes, just mental errors, just missing blocks, penalties.
Like those are the things that hurt teams that are bett🧸er than pretty much every team t🎉hat you’re going to play. Um, so we saw that, but I think it’s a value in that the drop off from him to second string, I think is really significant. I think there are some positions on this roster, you know, for example, defensive end where you can say, look, you’re not going to say you’re going to get better or it’s going to be the same if Jack Sawyer goes down and JT or excuse me, um, and Kenyatta Jackson comes in the game.
Andrew (04:17.774)
But you’re feeling pretty good about Kenyatta Jackson, right? There’s not anything there that would kind of scare you to a level that it would with the offensive tackle room. And that’s why I think Josh Simmons’ play is really valuable. I think Ohio State’s offensive line is going to be better than they were a y🔯ear ago. And I think one of those players, I think maybe the key p🍎layer to that kind of improvement would be Josh Simmons. I don’t really have any ton of concern about Donovan Jackson playing at left guard, so.
I want to see Josh Simmons improve and I think if he does, I think Ohio State’s offensive line is going to be in a𓂃 really, re🥃ally solid spot, which is probably all you need.
So Nathan, I think Andrew brings up🥂 a pretty good point there because we’re talking about value, right? And if the drop off between the starter and the guy who maybe is his backup is a significant drop off in that situation, that probably does raise your value in a conversation like this. Just when you were formulating your list, how much did that go into how you came up with your top 20 versus maybe some other things you were considering?
You know, I had a list that I was putting together at first and it was maybe with more consideration towards how crucial a player is or how crucial them getting better is or, or something like 💮that. And then🐼 when I reread your email that just said the most valuable, I think I made it a little bit more straightforward somewhat. And we’ll talk about some slight.
Mm.
Nathan Baird (05:48.162)
deviations that I made from that, especially at the top of the list, because it’s not just players, obviously, that we’re talking about here. So Simmons was on my list, but I feel like the importance of every position on the offensive line this season, because of what they went through last year, I had them all kinওd of clustered together a little bit more than any one of them moving higher up the list. Because when I look at last season, it’s part of my most valuable
math, and it wasn’t like a fಌormula, but just in my own head, wasও...
where does Ohio State need to be better than last year? Or where does it need to replace something important that left? And sometimes those bumped people up as opposed to just like who are the purely best players. And no single position on the offensive line, I would argue last year, was𒀰 necessarily the problem. It was kind of an across the board issue. And so I’m pretty optimistic that...
Josh Simmons actually will have a pre𝐆tty solid year this year. I think, as I’ve said before, he was a little bit thrown to the wolves last year. The issues that he had last year were he was absorbing the hit for the coaching staff, basically, and in some ways parts of the coaching staff that weren’t even here anymore. So he should be, he was in my top 20, but lower in my top 20, because I focused, when I was thinking about most valuable, it was like, okay, who are the guys?
who are maybe going to drive them towards a championship, not the guys who have to be good so they aren’t the hole that they trip in trying to win a championship, if that 🦄makes sense.
Stephen Means (07:36.575)
I think you and I, in a lot of ways, approache🐻d it that way. I think ther☂e’s value in that other way as well. You don’t want to lose this dude because now you’re starting someone you’re really not sure of. But I put more value towards guys who’s, it’s almost like holding a car that’s already combusting together versus a guy who’s driving the car. And I think I put guys who are driving that car towards a national championship a little bit higher. A couple other people I wanted to point out before we get into this list here.
Andrew, there were a couple assistant coaches who got votes, a couple head coach, couple assistant💜 coaches, but only three coaches in total made the consensus top 10. But right off the list, you had J♍ustin Frye. He was fifth on your list. He was 13th overall. He did get two first place votes from our textures as well. So there were some other people who were thinking like you, but.
W🅰hy him? Obviously there’s other people, but why single him out as another assistant coach who’s also not a coordinator who needed to be on this list? I don’t think you’re wrong for this, by the way. This is wrong.
No, I u🀅nderstand. I’m just laughing because like, we’re gonna get to the consensus list in a minute, but it’s like, hey Andrew, your list was way different than everyone e💝lse’s and everyone, you are so different.
To be real with you, it’s honestly not. It’s honestly not. To be, to be, we’re all, all, I think there’s a couple ones where it’s like, man, you’re here, but you can understand how they got there, but it’s a pretty consensus lisℱt. Trust me.
Andrew (09:00.462)
Interesting. Well, yeah, I had Justin Fry fifth. Offensive line is a development position. You are going to hear me say that time and time again for as long as I am employed with Cleveland dot com covering Ohio State football. Offensive line is a significant position that you have t💎o develop. It is not one of those positions where Jeremiah Smith can show up and hey, you have the best. Maybe you have like the best left tackle on the team and the best left tackle on the Big 10 or something like that. That’s just not the way that this works. Well,
Unless you’re Justin Fry in 2022.
Josh Simmons, Nathan mentioned it, kind of got thrown to the wolves a little bit. 🏅He showed up and, hey, guess what? You’re now the starting left tackle. You haven’t had a spring practice. You haven’t had a winter conditioning. Coaches actually can’t even really talk to you until fall camp, so have fun. And that was it. And we saw him get better. Now you need to see that development take place. I mean, you need to see that next step.
Again, Donovan Jackson, not really concerned. Even Seth McLaughlin, who did make my list, but Seth McLaughlin, not really concerned. He’s a veteran player. I do think he’s important, but I’m not really concerned there. Luke Montgomery. How’s his development? Like the reason I have Justin Fry over Luke Montgomery is I don’t know necessarily if it’s up to Luke Montgomery right now. I would say that Josh Justin Fry has to do this, righ🧸t?
Justin Fry has to pull together an offensive line that is better than last year’s version. He has to pull together an offensive line that has improved from 2023 to 2024. And the way that I mapped this out was I originally had some guys, I was like, you know, maybe I should put them higher. Maybe I should put some of the players༒ higher. But...
Andrew (10:49.326)
I’m not going to put five offensive linemen ahead of the coach and just say, oh, this guy’s more important than the coach and this guy’s more important than the coach and this guy’s no, I think the coach is all encompassing for this offensive line. And when you map out the team, you need the offensive line to be better than it was a year ago. And I think that if they are, which I do think they will be better than they were a year 🎀ago, that either is the praise of a specific coach or to the detriment of a specific coach. So.
I think Justin Fry is very important goin🧸g into this s🔴eason.
So 14 different p💟eople got a first place vote between us three and the Texers. And I’ll just name some of them. Julian San got a first place vote, not on the list. Seth McLaughlin got a first place vote, but comes in at tied for 16th. So he’s right off our list. Justin Fry got a couple. And then Denzel Burke gꦦot a first place vote. But he’s 14th on our consensus list, Nathan. And I think both of you, both me and you, were probably higher on where Denzel Burke is and probably a little bit more comfortable putting him on a list.
like this. For me, it’s one the play. Obviously, he’s one of the best players on thi𓂃s team. He’s more. I mean, outside of Will Johns🥃on of this is just off the top of my head. If you want to put him in the conversation for maybe he’s the second best corner in the Big Ten, I think you can start to have a conversation about that. But then also the intangibles and the fact that we’ve talked about at length.
Thank you.
Stephen Means (12:13.855)
The attitude of thi🍒s defense feels like it’s Denzel Burke’s attitude and he’s a straight shooter with it. So all of that for me pushed him up to fifth. You didn’t have him necessarily as high as me, but you did have him in your top 10. Little surprised that he’s maybe not higher on the overall consensus list maybe.
Well, it’s hard, I’ll be interested to see what the consensus list is, because in some ways, it’s hard to pick which𝓰 single defensive player is the most important, because it’s such a loaded defense, and I can see guys, I can see people responding to an exercise like this and saying, well,
Is he more important? Is he more valuable than Davis and Ibn Osin? Are both of them on a list like this? Can you knock them down on the value list because the guys coming up behind them are so talented and look l𓆏ike they’re so ready to contribute. I could hear that sort of the flip side of what you guys were saying about Josh Simmons a couple minutes ago, that there is such depth behind them that you can pull them down a little bit. So no, I don’t think there’s any individual defensive player.
that it would surpri⛎se me to hear that people didn’t have very high simply because in almost every case there’s either someone else right there or it’s covered up by how talented they are at the other 10 spots.
Good. So that’s the list of guys who got firstౠ place votes but didn’t make the list. We’re going to take a quick break here and then we’re going to come back. We’re going to get into our list six through 10 on this Monday pod. Most valuable people to Ohio State’s chances of winning a national championship in 2024 here on Buckeye Talk.
Stephen Means (13:59.135)
Okay, so we did enough dancing arounꩵd it. Let’s get into it. St🅺even Means, Nathan Baird, Andrew Gillis. This is our official top 10 list of most valuable players, Ohio State Championship chances in 2024. We did a top 20. I asked our texter 614 -350 -3315 to do a top five. I compiled all of that, came up with this weird formula that worked for me. And I got this top 10 list, top 20 list, but we’re only going to do the top 10, six through 10 on this pod.
one through five on the Tuesday pod coming in at number 10, though they only got one first place vote, but his overall score 7 .6𓂃5. He’s tied with another guy who got two first place votes, who’s also 7 .65, both on offense. Andrew had the highest vote for both of these guys, which is hilarious to me. Josh Fryer and Devin Brown come in tied at seven. So let’s split this up a little bit. Nathan.
I want you to talk about why it was important to have Devin Brown on this list, because you did have him in your top 10. And then, Andrew, you can talk about w💟hy you had Josh Fryer in your top 10. Nathan, you go first.
Yeah, Brown was in my top nine. I had Friar in my top 20, obviously, but Brown was number nine on my list. Part of it is because I don’t know who’s going to start at quarterback for this team yet. He could still start at quarterback for this team. And even if he doesn’t start on opening day, he could, he is now by virtue of having stayed here through the spring portal win♐dow is on this team until December at the very least. And if something else happens,
Mm -hmm.
Nathan Baird (15:37.346)
I still think he’s number two right now, as we sit here, May 2nd, 2024. And that may change because if they see something r🐲eally special in Julian Sain by the time they needed a backup quarterback to be a big part of the team, like there’s gonna be a different conversation potentially at that point. I guess you could even say there’s potentially a different conversation that if Jul♋ian Sain just looks like the best quarterback on the roster at some point, and we’re kind of just imagining things right now, but.
That may not take an injury to put him in the driver’s seat. But as we sit here right now, Devon Brown is no worse than the backup quarterback for a team that isꦰ a trying to win a national championship, has this stacked up roster that is set to win a national champ♉ionship and has a starting quarterback who, if it’s not him, who has a not yet like,
sealed up that job and B, we just don’t know yet what his ceiling is, like how good he will be. Now he is higher on my list because of just how the spring ended, I guess, and because, well, we’ll talk about that when we come to it, but I still think💮 Brown is top 10 in terms of value because quarterback gets extra value and in these circumstances wher🤡e we still know whether he is the starter or not, I think,
꧂yo🔯u have to hedge your bets a little bit that if he is the starter, then nine where I have him is too low.
So before we move on to Josꦡh Fryer, just because you had him so highꦫ, Andrew, Devin Brown, you had him third on your list. Why so high?
Andrew (17:28.078)
Why Devon? Well, so I kind of cheated and I had two a Will Howard to be Devon Brown. So I don’t like I had both of them just kind of right there because I didn’t really know. And I was like, you know, I’m not going to say that one of these guys is more important ꦑthan the other because frankly, I have no idea what’s going to happen. I put Will Howard at two a because I think he’s going to be the starter, but I can’t be sure. So I mean, you need your quarterback to be good and you need your quarterback to be valuable to the team. And we saw last year.
what maybe can happen if you have a🏅 quarterback who maybe can’t elevate the level of a game or level elevate the level of an offense because I’m sure a lot of people we talk I mean somebody made this comment, you know before where it was, you know, I think we were just standing around it was like what happens if CJ shroud would have stayed well, I’m like, well CJ star would have stayed they would have blitzed through everybody on their schedule. But even if you’d get minimized🐻 CJ shroud like even if you get somebody who’s like,
you know, half of like not made on half, but you get what I’m saying. Somebody who’s and a downgrade from him, but an upgrade from a cord. I mean, you probably beat Michigan and go to the colleg🎶e football playoffs. So yeah, you need your quarterback to play well. You need your quarterback to be good. That’s why I had the quarterback. So.
So I had the quarterbacks a little bit lower on my overall list. And I think part of it is because of what Nathan, you were talking about. We don’t know who the starting quarterback is. In fact, I didn’t have Julian Sand on my list at all, but that’s still a possibility. All of this is still on a table in a wཧorld where you’ve kept all five starting, all five quarterbacks after the transfer portal. Go check out a pod last week to see the conversation we had about that and why that was so important. And you should view it as a good thing that all five of those guys stayed. But because of that, I don’t think I may be able to
to circle around one guy and put him as high as I want to put him because I think once they pick a quarterback, whoever it is goes up to like one, two, three or four easily for me. But because it is so wide open and it’s not just two people, it feels like it ꦕmight be three people in the mix. Even if it’s two plus one right now, I have to consider that while also.
Stephen Means (19:37.631)
I keep going back to that conversation we had last year, Nathan, where it’s like, how good does the quarterback have to be for this team to win? A little bit better than Kyle McCord. I think it’s fine. I don’t know if it has to be CJ Stroud level. So when we’re talking about value, while𒁏 yes, logic says quarterback’s the most val💧uable position in any sport. When your team is this loaded and you don’t need a superhero at quarterback.
it can push guys down. So I separated where Will Howard💦 and Devin Brown were. I still had Devin Brown in my top 15, but he wasn’t in my top 10 because of that reason. Andrew, Josh Fryer.
Is he higher because you think he’s a tackle? But if we and if we get to the fall camp and he’s playing right guard now, does that change how you maybe would have♒ voted for him in somethingꦡ like this?
Yeah, you kind of read my mind. I think, you know, Josh Simmons, I think is important because you need that big time left tackle. You need that, you know, you need that pass protector. You need that athletic guy on the line that can, you know, that can take that leap. I think that that was why I had him so high. I have Josh Fryer have for similar reasons because I don’t love Ohio State’s, you know, third and fourth tackle situati💦on right now. I don’t know, like, all right, Tegra is Tegra Shibola, you know, enough. I,
I don’t know, but also what if Tegra Shibola is enough and Josh Fryer kicks to guard? Because Ryan Day has pretty clearly made it a point that Josh Fryer is one of the best five offensive linemen that they have. He said that explicitly after the spring game where he said, you know, of course somebody asked him a question about Josh Fryer and he goes, of course we believe Josh Fryer can play tackle. He’s done♑ it. So we know he can play tackle. He’s one of our best five.
Andrew (21:23.598)
We just gotta figure out where we’re gonna put him. So that versatility of playing on that right side, especially maybe you’re playing on the right side with somebody who hasn’t played in ever, you know, you’re playing with Luke Montgomery, someone who’s taking his first snaps on an offensive line, or you’re 🅷playing with Tegra Shibola who hasn’t really played significant minutes in any kind of significant game or anything like that. Yeah, that’s a huge deal. So.
Josh Fryer has been lauded this off season for like changing his body and really kind of taking a ꦏbig leap forward going into this off season and going into sprin🐼g practice. So I mean, to me, Josh Fryer, because of the versatility that he has, whether or not you’re going to play him at right guard or right tackle, because of who you’re going to play him next to, whether that’s Tegra Shibola, whether that’s Carson Hinsman, whether that’s Luke Montgomery, whatever it is, he’s going to be in a really important role. And...
Considering where this offensive line is, I mean, I had three off꧂ensive linemen in the top 11 and I had the offensive line coach fifth. So I think you can kind of get a sense on how I think or how I made up this list, I should say.
Stephen Means (22:32.799)
So I wanna move on to number nine. Cause I think this is going to be an interesting discussion of ⭕upside talent ability versus value based on what else is also in the room with him. Coming in at number nine, the Texers had this guy at 15. I had him at e🌳ight.
Andrew had him at 13. Nathan, you hadꦏ this guy at number two on your list. And that’s Jeremiah Smith with a score of 7 .85.
in our top 10 true freshman wide receiver first has lost his black stripe quicker than anybody in Ohio State football history. Number one player in the country, maybe the best wide receiver recruit of the past decade. Everything else you want to say under the sun about him. You had him. I think it was the right🐻 move to have him on this list. I’m wondering why number two for you.
So this is where I was talking before about how if you’re replacing something essential that left, you got extra credit. Listen, you think about talking about reasons why Ohio State could win a national championship this year. The offense has to be better than▨ it was last year. We don’t know yet if the quarterback play will be better than common core was last year. We do absolutely do not know that.
Mm -hmm.
Nathan Baird (23:56.514)
No one out there can say for certain that these guys will be better than Kyle McCord was last year in terms of efficiency, in terms of decision making, in terms of whatever thing you want to put there. Maybe I’m not saying certainly there are indivi𒅌dual aspects where they could be better, but you know what I’m saying? Total, total performance. We don’t know that that’s going to be better. And the one weapon that made Kyle McCord as good as he was is gone. And we think Emeka Buka can be a really strong receiver this year.
I don’t think any of us think of hi🍌m like Marvin Ayrson Jr. yet. I suppose he could come out and do that again this year, but there’s just a special presence that someone like Marvin Ayrson Jr. had. And Emeka Ibuka, while being someone who I think you could comfortably project as being maybe a first round NFL receiver, hasn’t really hit those notes yet, and Jeremiah Smith kind of already is. A♐nd if you start talking about...
what guys who weren’t here last year but are here now could change what this offense is fundamentally. Whichever quarterba⛄ck wins this job, I would put higher on this list probably than Jeremiah Smith. That’s who would have been like number two or maybe even number one on my list if we knew for sure who that was gonna be. But absent that, I think this is where I put him because if you start looking ahead to, you start,
Imagine yourself in January.
watching Ohio State about to go play for a national championship and imagining what the things were that had to, that occurred, that pushed them through all the obstacles that we see potentially in front of them. Having to go win at Oregon💫, having to find a way to finally beat Michigan again, having to get through an extended playoff situation, having to beat a be🅰tter team in the big team championship game than they’ve maybe ever had to beat before. Like all those things, like what potentially helps you do that, it’s...
Nathan Baird (25:56.802)
undefined special whatever talent at a premi♍um position and Jeremiah Smith is starting to look like that’s what he is. So that’s where he, I gave him that maybe extra credit is because not only does he have to replicate or fill in, he has to fill the shoes of Marvin Harris Jr. to some extent, but he’s already doing it. Like he’s already iꦆn terms of how much teams are maybe gonna have to game plan for him.
That’s different than a Mecha -Buka. That’s different than Karnell Tate. Like you’re already seeing the signs of that. Maybe we’re out🍬 in front of it too much and maybe we’ll look back on this in December and January and think, well, that was, you know, okay, he had a fine season, but this isn’t how we were talking about Karnell Tate at thꩵis time last year, right? Like we thought Karnell Tate was probably gonna play. They’d probably find a role for him. We’re talking about like, does Jeremiah Smith need to just be out there all the time and forget about how you’re rotating? Like that’s sort of how we’re talking about this. And for when this offense has to take a step,
past last season. Part of taking that step is either the quarterbacks have to be way, way, way better to make up for not having Ma🗹rvin Arison Jr. anymore, or somebody has to replicate some of that special ▨that Marvin Arison Jr. had. And there are indications that he might be able to do that pretty quickly.
I thought about putting him higher because of that reason. I think that’s the most valid reason for ever putting him at n🅰umber two. Andrew, you didn’t have him, I think, in your top 10. No, you had him outside of your top 10. Why no love for JJ?
Well, I had a Mecca hire, and it wasn’t necessarily no l🥃ove for JJ, I think.
Stephen Means (27:35.679)
I’m gonna call it No Love for JJ. Just in case JJ listens, he can come to you and you canไ do it.
Yeah. No love. Yeah. No love for JJ would be a good album name. But I the thing with a Mecca and the thing with JJ and the thing with Carnell to a lesser extent is. I think you’ve got a player in a Mecca who very clearly like look at some of the receiver🐭s that went at the end of the first round, that Pierce all guy from Florida went to the 49ers.
Um, Xavier worthy went to the chiefs and I know they want like a speedy receiver, but like, and Mecca Bucca in my opinion, when healthy is a better receiver than both of those players. And like, this is a guy who could very🍨 well have been a first round pick like a week ago. And the thing that I just can’t get past is Ohio state might have the, the horse of all horses in Jeremiah Smith.
They also have a guy who could be in the NFL right now. And that’s a Mecca Bucca. And I think when it comes down to value, which is maybe I looked too hard at this. I know every year there’s a conversation in every sport about, well, who’s the best player? Well, who’s the most valuable? So maybe I look too much at value here. 𒀰But like if, let’s say a Mecca, you know, is hurt again or something like that.
Then you’re, or drops off or what, I don’t know, whatever crazy thing you can think of. Then you’re down to Jeremiah, who is very talented and very good, but is a freshman and Cardell Tate, who didn’t really have a super big role last year. Emeka Igubuka is awesome. And I don’t want to make the Jeremiah Smith point an Emeka Igubuka point, but I think that that was why I had Jeremiah down. I think this was a little bit like, maybe you cou🦩ld mak🍰e an argument with the secondary where it’s just like.
Andrew (29:30.158)
Okay, they’re all really good. So who’s more valuable than another? And I think they all kind of pulled each other down in a little bit. I fe🐠lt the same way about receiver. I think Jeremiah Smith very good. And I’ve said before, I don’t think it’s crazy to think he’s like the best receiver on this team in like a month or two into the season. I just think that Emeka Gbuka is more valuable. And I think with Jeremiah, he hasn’t been part of this offense yet and we still need to see what his value is.
So I ha🔯d Jeremiah higher than Mecca. Mecca wasn’t in my top 10, Jeremiah was. And Nathan laid out a lot of the reason why. I’m gonna take this step further. I’ve been looking through, trying to find some true freshmen around the country who have maybe had, you k﷽now.
Excellent sees like the type of years where we’re thinking Jeremiah Smith might be able to ha𒉰ve here and then trying to narrow in on receivers who have also done it on teams who had championship expectations because that’s very different right Nathan if you’re a freshman doing it out of school that’s going to go nine and three well it’s awesome but it’s like I mean they kind of needed you to do that versus doing it for a school who’s in the college football playoff and like they didn’t𒅌 absolutely need you to do it but you did it anyway right and the most recent one I could find
was Clemson in 2018. And I’m𓆏 going to use Clemson to make both of your guys’ points here on why, Andrew, you had a Mecca Bucca so high. I think a Mecca Bucca is T Higgins in this situation. T Higgins in 2018, 59 catches, 936 yards and 12 touchdowns. Quality reౠceiver, right? High value receiver, right? Really good. NFL level receiver. He was the 33rd pick in the NFL draft. Quality receiver, wide receiver, two level receiver. Really good receiver.
Justin Ross that year had 46 catches for a thousand yards and nine touchdowns and he went bananas at💧 the end of the season, which is like kind of what we’re talking about here, Nathan, right? Is when you get to those games, here’s his playoff performances. Here’s now actually here’s his, his performances from ACC championship game on against Pitt. They won 42 to 10, two catches for 70 yards against Notre Dame and the college football semifinal.
Stephen Means (31:36.287)
Playoff semifinal, six catches, 148 yards and two touchdowns. Against Bamওa, when the Tigers kind of just whipped h💫im, six catches, 153 yards and a touchdown. And it just felt like that was the Justin Ross day. And it was like, okay, that dude’s in the conversation to be one of the best receivers in the country for the next two years. He was so good.
That when Garrett Wilson got on this campus in 2019, like three weeks later, we’re asking Garrett, hey, you saw what Justin Ross just did? You think you caꦓn do that as a true freshman? Garr꧋ett flashed. He had his moments. He had to catch against Clemson. This is a whole different level. He was never quite this.
what Justin Ross was at the end of the year, Nathan. And I think that’s what you’re talking about with Jeremiah Smith. And it didn’t just, it’s not Chris Olave like where Chris Olave showed up against Michigan, had the two catches, and then it was on, but for like the first 11 w🧸eeks, he wasn’t really a part of things. No, Justin Ross was a part of things the entire year.
Two for 16 against Furman started out slow next week, three for 103 against another FCS opponent earlier that year. Wake Forge five for 74 against NC State five for 75. He had been building up to this all year as a g✤uy where to your point, Andrew T Higgins is valuable. T Higgins is a really good receiver, but he ain’t no Justin Ross. And I think that’s what we’re talking about with Jeremiah Smith is yes.
A Mecca Bucca is really good. Did you see the catch he had in the spring game? Cardinal Tate might be really good. Brandon Hinnis might be really good, but there ain’t no Jeremiah Smith. So Nathan, the reason why I hope you didn’t take me asking is🍸 like, why did you have them so high? It was more like you went 90 in a place where I think I was going 75 and it made me think maybe I should have been going 85.
Nathan Baird (33:20.866)
Yeah, how uncommon for me to be the one who’s running away with a receiver thing here. But for me, it’s as you’re imagining the championship team, the team that just won a national championship. Like somebody’s going to start. We know they’re not going to have me. Somebody has to start at receiver. But it’s like who emerged in ꦰsuch a special wꩵay that it sort of transformed what the defense or the offense is. He’s the guy that
c꧒an do that the most, I think, on this roster, other than the quarterbacks, other than Will Howard or Devin Brown, either one, stepping up and playing, obviously, the best football of their career, and taking the quarterback performance up a notch from where it was a year ago.
Stephen Means (34:12.575)
That’s a, I think that was, that’s𒐪 a smart place to over exaggerate. Cause that’s what we’re talking about. A guy who might be doing it all year. And then when it’s time to go win a championship, it’s like, it’s on that dude. He’s the dude in the games that matter most. And he’s talking, we’re talking about a true freshman and to your point, he’s replacing a dude who was a dude.
when it mattered most in that game, whether you’re talking about Penn State, he was awesome against Michigan, man. He’s not the reason they lost. He had 100 yards back to back years. The Georgia game, he was dominating Georgia and he got knocked out of the game. That’s what we’re talking about here. A dude replacing the number four pꦆick in the NFL draft. And for the last four months, he’s made you feel like you’re not going to say you’re not going to miss the number four pick in the NFL draft, but you’ll be OK not h♐aving the number four pick in the NFL draft on your roster. That’s so far. That’s nine and ten. Jeremiah Smith at nine.
Josh Fryer and Devin Brown tie fꦛor number 10. We’ve got three more people to get through here. One more tie and then a couple other guys as well when we come back her🐬e on Puk Eye Talk.
Stephen Means (35:12.959)
So t🍌his is our second tie of this conversation and it’s tied f♒or.
Seven. So it’d be seven eight since we’re doing a tie thing in this situation. Both of these guys, eight point three five. Nathan, you had the hi𝓰gh on both of these guys. We kind of just had an Amekabuka conversation. I think the Texers pushed up Amekabuka a little bit more because they were a little bit higher on on Amekabuka than they were Jeremiah Smith. I think they took the more I want to say responsible route, but they thought things more like Andrew did in th💧at situation. So he’s tied at seven along with JT Tui Malo out. Amekabuka also got a first and a first.
place vote and that’s probably where🎉 the difference was. JT Chuyo Maloao and Emeka Buka both coming in at 8 .35. Nathan, JT Chuyo Maloao is not the highest defensive lineman on your list but he is number five so you do have two guys in your top five I believe. Why is JT so high for you?
Yeah, and I not knowing exactly how we would format this. I mean, you could hav😼e a Sawyer to a Malo out conversation together, I suppose. But for the sake of🅷 this.
Nathan Baird (36:23.17)
There’s still unrealized greatness, possibly, in certain guys on ✅this team. And I think, I guess🎐 you could say that about literally anybody, but I think we see, we’ve just seen pieces of it from certain guys that we know that there’s something more to reach for. And if they can ever do it consistently,
how much of a force it would make them an𒈔d how much it wou💧ld make this already strong defense even more imposing. And so he’s very high on that list because all of the attributes are there. And what he means as an all around player to this defense, even from a position where you have some specialized duties, is kind of can’t be.
understated and we’ve seen it ꦕhappen in the very biggest games and that was the other reason I thought he had to be high on this list is because when you start talking about value someone’s value against Akron is different than their value against Oregon or their value against Michigan certainly in a value in the postseason and Whether it was against Penn State a couple years ago whether it was against Notre Dame last year, you know, JT Tumalo out has a
history of stepping up in big games and doing crucial things. And it’s very easy to kind of look into the future and imagine writing those sto♔ries about him in those games when they come along here in seven, eight months.
Stephen Means (00:05.981)
So I had JT6 an🐷d it’s for a lot of the reasons you just pointed out there, Nathan. I mean, he just shows up and when the games are the biggest, right? You talk about the Penn State game in 2022. You talk about the Notre Dame game where he plays the whole game. And at the end of the game, he makes two crucial plꦬays that probably define that game.
just as much as anything else. He’s making plays in the Penn State g🥀ame later that season as well. When they’ve needed a play to be made in his career, JT Twielmo Lowell has made them. And that’s what, I mean, you need that when you get into the college football playoff, when you get through a season like this, when you get to Oregon, they’re gonna need him to make plays in those situations. I also didn’t want to separate him and Jack Sawyer too much b𝓀ecause they’re not the same exact player. They maybe impact the game at their best in different ways.
but I do🌟 think, I don’t think there’s a difference in terms of the effect they can have on a game at the college football level. Now, if we want to talk draft stock, that’s a different conversation, but I think both of those guys can be effective. And that’s why I didn’𒈔t want to have them too far away from each other. Andrew, you a little bit lower on JT Tui Malauau. You had him 12th.
And then you had Jack Sawyer 17th. I’m going to introduce Jack Sawyer to this conversation as well, cause he’s sixth. He’s our final guy. This side of the top 10. He had one first place vote. There is a gap between him and where Emeka Buka and JT Tui Moloao are. His overall score was 10 .4. So everybody else in up is going to have at least a score of 10. Everybody else ꦗhad Jack Sawyer higher than JT Tui Moloao, but you, you had JT Tui Moloao higher than Jack Sawyer. First and foremost though, why are both of them so low on your list?
and why JT over Jack.
Andrew (01:41.87)
Yeah, we’re just going back to the beginning of the pod where it’s jus🧔t like, Hey, Andrew, your list is wildly different. What up with that? Um, I think, um, it definitely, the value, I think it goes down because of the entire defensive line. Um, the entire defensive line is really good. Tyler Williams, Ty Hamilton, Cade, McDonald, Jason Moore, here, canoe, Will Smith. Like the interior is really good. And you have depth at the 🅰edge.
And I understand there’s going🥃 to be aꦓ drop off because we’re talking about, you know, Jack Sawyer and JT is potential first round picks in a year. That’s completely reasonable and fair conversation to have, but I think you like what you have in Kenyatta Jackson. I think you like what you have in Caden Curry. I think you like the early returns from Edward Houston. We’ll see. Um, I mean, that guy’s got to put on some weight, but I think most people that are.
should be in their spring semester, their senior year of high school do look like that. So I just, I think you have a lot there to where it really pulled down a lot of defensive players for me in terms of lik𝔍e who’s more valuable than one another, because it’d be one thing if it was JT to Malo out and then Kaden Curry was across from him. And then you had some nondescript third and you know,
you know, second and third team guys who just hadn’t really done anything and maybe weren’t highly rated as recruits or something like that, or who hadn’t flashed. Like I just, I feel like you have enough there to where maybe the value of thoseꦦ guys can get brought down. They still deserve a place in, you know, top 12, top 15, top 17, whatever. I had JT higher than Jack because I think the ceiling is higher with JT.
Like I think that the ceiling of this like 12 to 15 sat guy is there for JT. And I think with Jack, it’s much more, you know, we’ve kind of talked about this in like a well -rounded fashion, plays the run really well, does things that coaches love really well. He just, he’s just incredibly even keel, incredibly well -rounded as a football player. So to me, that was why I had JT higher, because I think ꧋in terms of what...
Andrew (04:01.038)
JT can give you in terms of like that athleticism that speed to power off the edge, you know, the run the pass rush I think that that really w🌱ould elevate Ohio State’s defense To another level frankly, so I had JT higher just because I think the ceiling is higher with him. I know Fo♉r some guys on this list. I had the floor, you know, for example, like when I talked about Josh Simmons I was like, you know, I think Josh Simmons is more valuable because XYZ and I think that the the second level is really dangerous, but
for some guys on this list, I had the floor, you know, for example, like when I talked about Josh Simmons, Iꦍ was like, you know, I think Josh Simmons is more valuable because XYZ and I think that the second level is really dangerous. But with JT for me, I just think the ceiling is such a level where he’s really valuable. So the Texas had JT 12 on their list. I had him six. Nathan, you had him fifth. Let’s get into Jack Sawyer. Now you we both had him fourth on our list and the Texas were
JT for me, I just think the ceiling is such a level where he’s really valuable to 𓄧this team.
Stephen Means (04:49.071)
really high on Jack Sawyer as well. They had him sixth. So he’s the second highest defensive player on their list. I think he’s the second highest defensive player on both of our lists as well. Is this all about Jack Sawyer might be ready to just be a sack guy and there’s value in having a guy that Ohio State hasn’t had since 2019 and a guy who can game wreck a gꦿame by getting sacks.
To me it is, and it’s, I had him one spot higher than Tumaloao. It could have been a 4A, 4B like Andrew tried to get away with, I suppose. I put him a little bit higher though, because he’s the one that I think we’ve, we may have seen the best of JT Tumaloao. Maybe we have, and maybe we’re wrong. Maybe there isn’t something more that he reaches for. It’s ju🐠st a matter of being more consistent, ♉which I guess is its own new level to reach for.
But Sawyer, we saw something different from him in the second half of last season that tells you maybe there’s more to be built on going into next year, this fall. And even if he’s the one of the two that we have always thought was maybe more of the natural edge rusher that you could define as a sack guy, I guess, as you just did. And it’s the element that this defense has beeꦰn missing, even as it’s gotten better here these last two years.
is just a, for lack of a better term, like intimidating presence off of the edge. Not the teams I think don’t respect the guys that Ohio Sta꧃te puts out there, but he can be something else. He can, if he’s a guy who can come in and get you, push for double digit sacks for the first time in a long time now for this defense, which is such a weird thing to say, but if he can come in and push towards that, then.
Again, it’s just what is already taking this defense that’s really great and that weꦫ looked at last year only allowing 17 points, more than 17 points once, and which absolutely played well enough to win the cotton ball hands down and dominated Missouri at times, a team that has a lot of offensive weapons, including guys that are being projected as first round picks next year. Like all those things, like he can taဣke all of that.
Nathan Baird (07:06.323)
and ratcheted up another notch. That’s him and the guy, the only guy that I ranked higher on defense are both guys that I see as being because of him or what he’s hinted, the other one similarly at a different position. But like everything that last year’s defense was, what could push it up another notch? I think J♚ack Sawyer kind of unlocking the key to all of these, just piling up sacks and making teams have to prote🧔ct.
against Ohio 𝔍State in a different way, he📖 falls into that category for me.
Stephen Means (07:44.989)
It’s just what that can open up and just in terms of creativity with Jim Knowles, having a guy like that who can just get after it, but also in some ways, maybe simplify thi🧸ngs as well when you need to write Ohio State’s 2019 defense wasn’t the most, you know, complicated defense in the world. It was very simple. Watch Chase young kill quarterbacks in every so and watch Jeff Okuda shut down a side of the field that is on the table o🔯f Jack Sawyer turning into that. And you mix that with what this backend might look like while also Jim
isn’t going to be simple all the time, right? I mean, into that during the spring, like the double eagle look where you’ve got Jack and JT standing up. And we saw a preview of that in the spring game where you’ve got, you know, five defensive linemen in the game where Jack and JT are on the outside standing up. You’ve got Kenyatta Jackson and Kaden Curry in there along with Ty Hamilton, and they can do everything else under the sun. But i🔯f you’ve got a guy who other teams have to game plan for and be worried about every time it’s third and seven, and if it feels like Jack Sawyer is starting to flash the
that I’m with you. That’s what pushed him higher for me. He ends up six for the texters and it’ꦚs literally like a point one difference between him and who number five is, which will reveal on Tuesday. A couple of coaches in that list, couple of defensive guys, couple of offensive guys as well. And the top five get the text 614 -350 -3315 if you want to have your voice heard and stuff like this. So this is our top 10, six through 10 s🍨o far. Number 10, Josh Fryer and Devon Brown are tied. Number nine, Jeremiah Smith.
tied at number seven, Ameka, Buka and JT Tui and Maloao and at number six, Jack Sawyer. So six guys for♉ five spots because we had some ties in there as well. And when you tie, you get a chance to be in this conversation. This isn’t like the college football playoff where you can win all your games and still get left out of the college football playoff simply because your quarterback got hurt. We’re not going to do that in this situation. So that’s six through 10. We’ll do one through five on the pod on Tuesday. Get the text six one four three five oh three three one five. The transfer portal window is closed, but guys are still making decisions on where they’re going.
going. There ar♕e people who are reportedly visiting Ohio State, whether it’s through the transfer portal or recruits. And we’re texting about that stuff as well. Two week free trial, $3 .99 after that for Nathan Baird and Andrew Gillis. I’m Stephen Means and that was Puck Eye Talk.
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